New unpaid item process …

[Philip.Cohen]

Another interesting article by Chris Dawson relating to “unpaid items” at
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/new-unpaid-item-process-blocks-payments-after-strike.html

Chris Dawson looks at this matter from the point of view of an apparently scrupulous seller who appears to be quite trusting of eBay. I always look at anything that eBay says or does from eBay’s point of view, and I never take anything that eBay says at face value, for I believe that unless there is some potential benefit, or the stemming of some perceived loss, to eBay, eBay will say and do absolutely nothing.

What possible logic can there be for eBay stopping an apparent “non paying” buyer from being able to pay afterwards via the eBay system? (Please, don’t try to explain the logic to me because I could not possibly understand it.) Surely, it has to be simply incompetent programming?

Alternatively, one could wonder if eBay’s interference in this process, this blocking of a “non payer” from being able to pay afterwards, is some clumsy attempt at controlling the abuse by unscrupulous sellers of the “buyer did not pay” excuse for the avoiding of FVFs on shilled auctions gone wrong. Could this “block” possibly be a system-imposed ongoing block on that non payer with that seller? Could it be a way of eBay saying that unscrupulous sellers’ shills can now have only so many “did not pays”? Now, that would be an interesting concept. Regardless, there otherwise has to be some perceived benefit for eBay in this action otherwise they would not do it.

Could that be the reason why “beckertime” appears to have such a constant stream of new low-feedback IDs appearing on his auctions?

If that hypothetical is the case, the habitually unscrupulous will need to be continually creating new “bidding” IDs. And, as a side benefit of that phenomenon, the head jester at eBay—at the same time as eBay’s marketplace revenue is continuing to decrease—will be able to, once again, announce another increase in “users”—it’s a shame though that so few of these many “new users” will ever intentionally buy anything …

Sorry, just stirring the pot …

[*smee*]

you know Phil every time you post something like this you just remove any shadow of doubt
*shakes head and departs thread*

absolute

[shyer]

........will be able to, once again, announce another increase in “users”—it’s a shame though that so few of these many “new users” will ever intentionally buy anything …
Sorry, just stirring the pot …

 Phill I get up to 20% non paying bidders about 1/2 complain the paypal premium I charge about 8% is too expensive. This new 8 day turn abound for non payers for me is a step in the right direction. And much better for very time sensitive items like concert tickets
 For shillers the usuall cancelation method is mutual cancellation , you do not want unpaid bidder strikes on your shill buyers, easier to reuse in 90 days again. With the new feedback changes under survey ebay is fast galloping towards amazon mark 2.

[ernest_price]

Just interested here if smee doesn't think a business would do that or is just tired of repeated eBay negatives [be they valid/invalid/whatever].

I've worked in too many companies as a consultant and I know how numbers are manipulated/created/propagated to either keep a board/management safe from shareholders for another year or some other purpose [takeover, merger, acquisition].

Businesses, BIG businesses do this. Most of them. Nearly all the time.

Take a look at the Sydney Sunday print media print numbers, look at various sports grounds attendance numbers and banks customer/servce scores.

Now the banks customer 'satisfaction' numbers are classics - I was working with one [don't know which one] where a fairly simple analysis [i.e. any first semester stats student] showed that their 'major improvement' in service scores were absolute crap - the senior management team couldn't work out how to tell the CEO, who had made a point of trumpeting service scores to the board, and not risk their jobs - so they didn't tell him - they ended up coming up with a believable excuse to 're-baseline' the scores and start afresh]. Old scores had no link with new scores and "couldn't be compared".

If eBay shareholders are stupid enough to believe that an increase in account numbers without accompanying usage stats is enough then so be it.

   

[Philip.Cohen]

Hi Shyer,

But why would you want to system-block any buyer, even a little-late paying buyer, from being able to pay via the eBay system no matter how late they were offering to pay (assuming there had been some communication between the buyer and seller), unless, of course, you had already put the unpaid for item up for sale again.

You know me, I've watched eBay as closely as one can from the outside for a couple of years now and I leaned to take everthing eBay says with a grain of salt and when eBay actually does do something I simply can't help looking for the benefit to eBay.

[*CountessA*]

Alternatively, one could wonder if eBay’s interference in this process, this blocking of a “non payer” from being able to pay afterwards, is some clumsy attempt at controlling the abuse by unscrupulous sellers of the “buyer did not pay” excuse for the avoiding of FVFs on shilled auctions gone wrong. Could this “block” possibly be a system-imposed ongoing block on that non payer with that seller? Could it be a way of eBay saying that unscrupulous sellers’ shills can now have only so many “did not pays”? Now, that would be an interesting concept. Regardless, there otherwise has to be some perceived benefit for eBay in this action otherwise they would not do it.

I seriously doubt it, Philip.

This is following a pattern that I see as eBay controlling almost every aspect of the transaction. I don't know whether you've noticed, but it certainly seems to me that auctions are increasingly being discouraged on eBay. eBay are almost certainly not concerned with the rights of auction item sellers, but it seems that the perception that the buyer is king is also changing at eBay. Who's really the king? Dare I suggest... eBay? Whoever gives the most to eBay with least possibility of upsetting the eBay applecart will be the flavour of the month, I would suggest. While at one time that was both buyers and sellers, the small sellers were then disadvantaged mightily. Buyers began to feel they could act with impunity (and many of them did). The catch-cry was that buyers were important to eBay, not sellers - that buyers could do no wrong. But that is clearly not lasting...

The move is now towards the offerings of very major sellers such as overstock.com and buy.com on eBay. They are increasingly the "flavour of the month", being wooed by low fees, flexible terms (perhaps?), high placement, etc.

There is no possible advantage for shill bidding sellers to be unable to remove unpaid item strikes. At all. None. There is no possible advantage for shill bidding sellers when eBay disallows late payment (after strike issued). At all. None.

None. Truly, none.

What would advantage shill bidders?

1. Having their bidding activity hidden so that no one could tell the % of activity on the seller's own items; (No, this is not enabled)
2. Lack of a sophisticated algorithm to detect suspicious patterns of bidding, bidding and retracting, bidding and failing to pay, bidding and relisting, etc.; (Well, yes, we all agree on this one)
3. Having the ability to "mutually agree" within seconds of the auction closing to cancel a transaction, and being able to relist immediately with no relisting fees and no FVF being applied; (Partially yes, but not completely so)
4. Having the ability to retract endlessly, with the most specious of reasons. (Oh yes, this one's enabled)

However, note that point 3 and 4 have other reasons for being enabled than to assume it's eBay being complicit in the tacit encouragement of shill bidding.

[shyer]

Hi Shyer,But why would you want to system-block any buyer, even a little-late paying buyer, from being able to

Hi philip,

There are many time sensitive items, those aside all this does is move from 17 days from first ABLE to block is to 10 days ABLE to block. It is not automatic seller still has to tick the box at least twice. I have found most sellers know within a few days wether payment is happening or not. 17 days is too long, stock and interest mount up. If you get deposit different story but lots of tire kickers and BS artists in ebay land.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

........will be able to, once again, announce another increase in “users”—it’s a shame though that so few of these many “new users” will ever intentionally buy anything …
Sorry, just stirring the pot …

 Phill I get up to 20% non paying bidders about 1/2 complain the paypal premium I charge about 8% is too expensive. This new 8 day turn abound for non payers for me is a step in the right direction. And much better for very time sensitive items like concert tickets
 For shillers the usuall cancelation method is mutual cancellation , you do not want unpaid bidder strikes on your shill buyers, easier to reuse in 90 days again. With the new feedback changes under survey ebay is fast galloping towards amazon mark 2.

 

I didn't know that sellers could charge a premium for people paying by Paypal.  How does that work Shyer?  Is it only Ebay Australia or Ebay around the world?

[shyer]

I didn't know that sellers could charge a premium for people paying by Paypal.  How does that work Shyer?  Is it only Ebay Australia or Ebay around the world?

I do very little international selling nowdays, Domestic post I vary, free within ACT, small area thus pickup or delivered anyway usually. Then as most items I am selling are in  $500 to $2000 bracket, registered and insured price NON PAY$PAL listed in ad. Pay$pal listed as well , and is charged at "VERY" expensive Platinum express or "expensive" courier and expensive packing.. Eaby allows varied shiping costs and seller can insist on shipping method.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Hi Shyer.

So your buyers would put in an excess postage complaint rather than a "I don't like Paypal premium" complaint?  Yes?

And to achieve this you vary the shipping cost manually after they buy the item, but you believe you are covered because you are up front about this in your listing?  ie:  That if they pay by Paypal, you will recover the extra costs to you by increasing the postage rate so you make more profit on the postage?

[Roo]

Hey Fluffy!

It was confirmed on the Ebay boards that a seller can stipulate Registered post for items paid by Paypal.

Not really a premium as such...but a true reflections of the extra costs incurred by a seller for this method of payment.

To tell the truth....a seller adding extra on with Paypal payments...to cover extra postage costs...and even perhaps, extra packaging..depending on the item....doesn't bother me much.

I actually respect sellers that do this...because they seem to be more aware of how to get stuff to their buyer...with the safest post available.

I have also elected Reg Post for some of the stuff I have sold over the years..mainly because I felt it was the best way to protect both myself and my buyer.

And I have never , even once, been queried on my postage rates.

[shyer]

About 1/2 refuse to pay, ebay and Pay$pal brain washed , suits me . Other 45% pay by Post office COD which I offer with deposit. About 5% accept terms as laid out in ad pay with Pay$pal and extra covers me.

[*smee*]

Roo , you are allowed to load your registered mail costs by the actual extra cost ... shyer has said he/she  sells stuff ranging from $500 to $2000 and loads it by 8% thats between $40 and $160 loading on each sale ,,,, no wonder 20% of his customers dont pay ......

[Roo]

You make a good point there Smee......the actual price with a premium loaded on can make a huge difference,

I guess it depends on the item you are selling though.  Can it be bought elsewhere at a saving?

At what point in the price would most consider extra postage costs excessive?

I tend to think that if you are prepared to pay $500+ for an item...then a couple of dollars to safeguard that purchase is well advised.

But then I don't buy high cost items unless I check their feedback out with a fine combed toth anyway..lol

[shyer]

Roo , you are allowed to load your registered mail costs by the actual extra cost ... shyer has said he/she  sells stuff ranging from $500 to $2000 and loads it by 8% thats between $40 and $160 loading on each sale ,,,, no wonder 20% of his customers dont pay ......

 Hi Smee,
In this price bracket 10% are never going to pay , " I won gosh I better read what I won, DO I WANT IT????" And the 8 % loading ONLY applies to Pay$pal and that is 3% PAypal charges 3% average charge back costs p$P never fights charge backs you have to defend yourself. (slightly offsetable) and 2% pay$pal holding money for up to 60 days (again bypassable within limits)

[*smee*]

I tend to think that if you are prepared to pay $500+ for an item...then a couple of dollars to safeguard that purchase is well advised

Roo since when is $40 to $160 a few etra $$$$ to load by this amount after the bidder has already won is just wrong .....

now I am fully aware that if a buyer pays by paypal it costs the seller money .... but never the less you arent allowed to do it all you can do is list the item as registered being compulsary and showing the registered loading you can not load by more after the fact !!!!!

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Shyer  ,

I'm really puzzled here.  When I've sold an item, I can edit the postage prior to sending the invoice.  But I would imagine that any buyer being charged say $15 postage + $160 premium would come as a huge shock to them and can understand why they wouldn't want to pay.  In fact, even an extra charge of $40 would cause a buyer to withdraw their sale.  I would imagine many people would want to pay by Paypal and many would not realise in advance (you knowhow people don't read listings well) that there is an extra premium.  It must cost you a fortune in listing fees having all these NPB!!!

I am puzzled about the logisitics here though.  An invoice is sent to a buyer BEFORE they choose to pay.  You don't know how they are going to pay until they pay, so how do you know what to charge them for postage?  Once you send an invoice, they buyer can pay automatically using it via Paypal and can pay instantly.  In fact many pay before the invoice is sent.

Could you talk us through what happens when someone pays by Paypal based on the invoice.  It is automatic.  How does the system know in advance how someone will pay?  Do you adjust it?  Negotiate?  Do all buyers who want to pay by Paypal withdraw?  You must have some buyers get quite upset and angry.  How has this effected your DSRs?

So therefore if someone pays via Paypal based on your invoice, do you then refuse to sell it to them because they haven't paid the $160 premium?

[shyer]

Ok, I sell smees t shirt as a collectible at auction it reaches $500 in listing I have free post within act "regular only" I also have everywhere else $5 for all payment methods ebay allows EXCEPT PAYPAL. yes I use colour and size font. Paypal postage is $49.99 again highlighted.

[removed text]

Now you can discuss payment options with winning bidder

Post moderated by admin/mod team

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Ok, I sell smees t shirt as a collectible at auction it reaches $500 in listing I have free post within act "regular only" I also have everywhere else $5 for all payment methods ebay allows EXCEPT PAYPAL. yes I use colour and size font. Paypal postage is $49.99 again highlighted.

[removed text]

Now you can discuss payment options with winning bidder

OK, so in your first paragraph up there you are saying you mention in large red letters on your listing your intent to charge 8% or between $40 - $160 to anyone who pays via Paypal?  Correct?

Then you are saying you use a false Paypal address to prevent buyers from paying to give you a chance to negotiate with them prior to them paying, so you can hit home the fact that they have to pay an extra $40 - $160?  Correct?

What would the percentage rate be of the complaints you would receive in relation to this business practise and how has Ebay responded to these complaints and how have they advised you on the best method to conduct your business according to their rules?  How do Ebay respond to the fact that you list using a false Paypal address?

This method would mean that the buyer would not be covered by Paypal, as the payment would be independant of Ebay's invoicing system and their purchase would not be linked to Paypal directly.  The payment would be an orphan so to speak and could not be traced back to a purchase.  How do buyers respond to this?

[shyer]

OK, so in your first paragraph up there you are saying you mention in large red letters on your listing your intent to charge 8% or between $40 - $160 to anyone who pays via Paypal?  Correct?

What would the percentage rate be of the complaints you would receive in relation to this business practise and how has Ebay responded to these complaints   How do buyers respond to this?

Correct was listed as large and in colour . 0% complaints does not fit standard eaby complaint tick box and DUHHH POST COST was in large blue font

Most buyers see logic and truth when explained other 5% too bad.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Ok, I sell smees t shirt as a collectible at auction it reaches $500 in listing I have free post within act "regular only" I also have everywhere else $5 for all payment methods ebay allows EXCEPT PAYPAL. yes I use colour and size font. Paypal postage is $49.99 again highlighted.

[removed text]

Now you can discuss payment options with winning bidder

OK, so in your first paragraph up there you are saying you mention in large red letters on your listing your intent to charge 8% or between $40 - $160 to anyone who pays via Paypal?  Correct?

Then you are saying you use a false Paypal address to prevent buyers from paying to give you a chance to negotiate with them prior to them paying, so you can hit home the fact that they have to pay an extra $40 - $160?  Correct?

What would the percentage rate be of the complaints you would receive in relation to this business practise and how has Ebay responded to these complaints and how have they advised you on the best method to conduct your business according to their rules?  How do Ebay respond to the fact that you list using a false Paypal address?

This method would mean that the buyer would not be covered by Paypal, as the payment would be independant of Ebay's invoicing system and their purchase would not be linked to Paypal directly.  The payment would be an orphan so to speak and could not be traced back to a purchase.  How do buyers respond to this?

 

OK, so in your first paragraph up there you are saying you mention in large red letters on your listing your intent to charge 8% or between $40 - $160 to anyone who pays via Paypal?  Correct?

What would the percentage rate be of the complaints you would receive in relation to this business practise and how has Ebay responded to these complaints   How do buyers respond to this?

Correct was listed as large and in colour . 0% complaints does not fit standard eaby complaint tick box and DUHHH POST COST was in large blue font

Most buyers see logic and truth when explained other 5% too bad.

Shyer you wascally wabbit.  I wasn't talking about the color of the writing, just that it was there.  lol  

Seriously, Ebay DOES have a complaints escalation process and I would have thought that at least some out of the 5% 'too bads' (and maybe some of the others - wow you must be happy about getting an extra $160 in your pocket) there must be someone who has complained to Ebay and therefore I am interested in what happened when this happened.  Did Ebay reiterate their rules to you?  What did they say?

Shyer there is no way on this earth, that given the level of anger this would cause to a minimum of 5 - 10% that someone wouldn't have put in a complaint or that someone has not reported the listings in advance.  

And you yourself have said:

Phill I get up to 20% non paying bidders about 1/2 complain the paypal premium I charge about 8% is too expensive.

That equates to a minimum of 10% very upset people that can be quantified at a minimum and possibly more unable to be quantified.

[mandurahmum]

Philip -  It seems that you think ebay is the only company that does things for their own benefit - to keep the shareholders happy - or to improve their image.  I am sure I dont need to tell you that nearly every single company in the world does that too.

As a buyer, I have agreed to pay within 7 days or less depending on the sellers terms.  Its part of the contract I have entered into between me and the seller.  Buyers that dont do this, deserve to get penalised.  If the seller wants to give the buyer extra time, the the buyer can simply mark the item payment made.

Beckertime seems to be your favourite subject, and I can see why Its hard not to be impressed with their sales and 100% feedback and only 1 neutral in nearly 1800 transactions.  You wonder why so many of their buyers have low feedback scores - well I suppose when you can afford a rolex, its means you are loaded and more than likely work darn hard.  They probably dont do a lot of personal shopping on line themselves, the wife/girlfriend/husband /boyfriend maybe,  you probably have an assistant/secretarty that buys gifts for you too, to give to others, or your wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend does this for you.  

But buying a rolex - well this is the perfect place - all the options right in front of you - you dont have to visit all those jewellery stores, its there is one place.  It makes sense to me.

You also take into account that most online buyers are pretty smart - they know shill bidding happens - most know how to spot it.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Post 14:  In this price bracket 10% are never going to pay , " I won gosh I better read what I won, DO I WANT IT????" And the 8 % loading ONLY applies to Pay$pal and that is 3% PAypal charges 3% average charge back costs p$P never fights charge backs you have to defend yourself. (slightly offsetable) and 2% pay$pal holding money for up to 60 days (again bypassable within limits)

OK Shyer.  Have done a few calculations:

Paypal charges AU $0.00 - $5,000 (base rate) 2.4% + AU $0.30

This equates to a Paypal charge of  fees on $2000 which is 48.30  ($2000 is the top end of your stated product range and therefore a realistic figure for you)

You have to pay for Registered Post, some packing and insurance  - but these costs are irrespective of whether someone pays via Paypal or not, so based on your structure, someone who pays via Paypal should not be explicitly charged these just because they pay by Paypal and this cost is likely to be minimal - probably around $20 even for customer requested registration, insurance and the highest postage - unless you are selling German tanks.

So out of a charge of  $160 extra charged just because someone has chosen to pay by Paypal (based on 8% - your stated levy -  of $2000)

After paying Paypal fee of $48.30, you have $111.70 left to cover you for money Paypal keep in advance (and Paypal have not started keeping funds yet I think, not sure) AND just in case the buyer does a chargeback you are withholding an extra amount - so you are self insuring here.  (Could also be a legitimate cost of approx $20 for registered postage and package at an estimate, in addition)

Charging the customer for self insurance is against ebay rules and charging extra to cover Paypal fees is also.  On top of this Ebay has a policy against excessive postage.

Are you sure Ebay hasn't pulled your listings at least some of the time?

http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Selling_-_listings/Excessive_postage

http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Selling_-_listings/Payment_surcharges

[Philip.Cohen]

Hi Countessa,

It’s never been my intention to suggested that eBay deliberately set out to facilitate shill bidding by unscrupulous sellers. What I do say is that, since the introduction of masked bidding aliases, shill bidding appears to have become even more rampant on eBay and eBay’s answer has only ever been to try to obscure such activity rather that bite the bullet and do something about it—seriously, what else was the “Bidder x” alias, or indeed masked aliases, period, all about? (Please don’t anyone tell me again that such masked aliases are for the security of naïve buyers, I will die laughing!)

By their not fixing the obviously “clunky” auction system, nor incorporating any effective pro-active system of analysis for the detection of such activity, they, by default—knowingly—do facilitate such criminal activity. eBay claiming that their system is as secure as it can be and that shill bidding is only a very minor problem is not a satisfactory response to what appears to me a very obvious and very unsatisfactory situation for the very many eBay users who are naive enough to take eBay at its word about matters of “security” for buyers.

An eBay auction is effectively less “secure” for buyers than any traditional auction could be because at a traditional auction you at least (should) know that you have to be very careful; eBay on the other hand keeps telling us how secure their system is when in fact there is nothing to stop sophisticated shills from operating at will.

[cueperkins]

Hey Fluffy, I'm not sure if this fits the description, but I can tell you NUMEROUS sellers overcharge postage on their listings to recoup paypal fees.....problem is, when people like me pay for the item with bank deposit, the postage miraculously stays the same most of the time...another postage rort?...yup !!!  Here's one seller who is at least honest...I won't 'out' her, but I will post the terms in her listing as follows:  a classic example of Paypal fees being passed onto consumers in a devious way, resulting in a massive mark up on the postage cost....as I said, this seller is at least honest.  Her Postage quote on the listing is 8.50 registered, but clearly her listing indicates she can post the item for $1.10, so subtract that and Rego, and she's charging a massive $4.60 on top of the true postage, just for using Paypal?.....

6 lovely necklace 1} small ball one is STERLING SILVER   2}.blue diamonti glass stone  avon 3}large clear sliding diamonti 4}ballerina with clip at bottom for charms 5}clear plastic with flower 6}sliding heart with small diamonti  ALL IN GREAT CONDITION  POST FOR BANK DEPOSIT $1.10 POST FOR PAY PAL $8.50 pickup welcome

[cueperkins]

and here's another one.....

She's quoting $8.00 regular 500 gram prepaid satchel...and well, we all know there is no such bloody thing don't we.....?...meanwhile the item listed is so small as to cost no more than a few bucks to post...I know this because I sold online for 7 years.....they think we're all a pack of morons don't they?......Like since when would it cost 8.00 to post a small necklace ????????.....and since when has 500gram, prepaid satchels gone up to $8.00?....say anything......so I emailed her to ask whether it might be a mistake...stand by for the usual justifications for postage rorting to follow I'll bet....maybe not....I'll let you know what she says....I said...

Hi, I was going to bid on this item and then noticed the postage cost....thought you may have made a mistake.....500gram prepaid satchels are 5.00, not 8.00...so, just wondering if this postage price is wrong?...Cheers.

[*CountessA*]

Now that is tactful, Cupie. I will be interested in hearing what the seller has to say.

I don't object to sellers trying to protect themselves and insisting that PayPal buyers pay for registered post, but the postage price should not be unreasonably inflated in that case. Posting by registered post is all the protection which the seller needs.

I understand sellers' frustration with funds potentially being held by PayPal. All I can suggest is that sellers look into other avenues of selling. Perhaps we can even brainstorm some alternatives.

[shyer]

.......Are you sure Ebay hasn't pulled your listings at least some of the time?

Yes fluffy about every 6 months ebay pulled a listing as an ebay moron does not know the rules. I am allowed to offer different transport methods and to set when different transport is mandatory. I have not had a listing pulled in a while. The main thing that used to upset ebay was I had a paragraph in all my listings giving my opinion of Pay$pal, very unfaltering.
Now I present the facts and ask at the end is PAY$PAL a friend of Australians? I do not show how I get my 8%. Paypal has been holding funds for years, my paypal collection accounts are only Personal accounts thus limited to $700 per month withdrawal at best. Personal also has higher fees. I refuse to give a shonky dishonest company unlimited access to my bank account which higer that personal require. Thus a $2000 payment from a paypal brainwashed victim, can take over 3 months to get my money.
I make it very clear in all listings Pay$pal costs more. I also LUV COD, is cash from PO and no record, real money. There are some tricks available but as Countessa has pointed out, not for public display. I also have a few selling IDs so if ebay goes into a spin and marks one ID down in search, I switch to another.
The bottom line is they want my fees, the ID is soon forgiven.

I know I lose a few sales a month not subsidising paypal . However net profit wise some sales I do not want.